You should think about the question which kind of people are more dangerous: religious people or people who think religion should be banned. The latter contains a lead up to mass murder.

Exactly. Where is the conscience of atheists, on what is it built? What stops them to, for example, kill somebody they don't like? Just the law?! Even the law is made from the facts written in Bible, when you take a close look.

Well not necessarily that (almost every man has a conscience, it's what I believe a leftover from how we were created by God), but this tendency that religion should be banned. This is not possible without murdering millions of people, let's face it. You can't stop people to think what they think.

People like this are becoming the monsters that they think religious people are. I mean, lots of these people grew up in a fairly religious environment, and probably had a hard time to get their "own opinion". They had to fight, so to speak, to get to the point that people have to accept that everyone is free to think what he/she wants in democratic countries. And now they want to get their revenge on religious people? I find this really disturbing. At least with christianity, there's this thing of not seeking vengeance.

In case anyone brings forth the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"-part of the Bible, Jesus talks about this. It's something like: "You know that there's written 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth'. But I say: if someone hits you, turn him the other cheeck". That's what's valid now.

This is where I can say that for a fact you are wrong.
This is a very typical opinnion.

(and right now I am studying the depths of moralphilosophy so I think it is safe to say I know a thing or two about this kind of discussion)


It is in their morale which exists with or without bible.


During thousands of years of thinking about that we still don't know for sure but this is what we have meta-ethics for.
But on the other hand if I can't tell what our morale is based on then what is the morale of bible based on?

Why can't I kill someone? because law forbids it. Why? Because bible says so. Why? here we have it.


So without bible we would be running around killing everything that moves?
The bible was written by man and for the moral the bible holds to have been possible to have been written down there has had to be morale before bible and no this is not my main argument.
Like I already brought out on this topic (and this makes me think do any of you REALLY read what I write in here)
Dawkins proved our morale is not based on bible or our religion. It comes elsewhere. If it did we would be Fundamentalists and we wouldn't emphasize any single word in bible and yet we think the message of bible might be to love or to care and stuff like that but it also says to kill and to do violent stuff and why don't we care about those? Because we only see what we want to see. Becuase we see the thoughts in bible that agree with the ones already existing in our minds.
Well Í am having kind of a bad example day but what Andreas said back there is a perfect piece of evidence:


Well all laws aren't based on religious text. It's the other way around instead. The code of Hammurabi for example.
And why do we obey laws? Why do we have them?



You could also say that the law is based on many other things than that.
A lot of what was said in bible about morale was not new at that time. This time around a god creature just ordered people to obey so they did.

The declaration of huan rights for example was based on thoughts of philosophers so don't say they haven't done anything good.


First of of all banning something in general is not good. Second of all: Religious people could have just as much to lead up to the same point. But if they can't use the religion as a way to make what they do "good" and acceptable like religion at times does it may make things a way more simple.


Friedrich Nietzsche disagrees with you. He thought conscience was something that was developed by religion and he never went killing anyone.
Do we not do things just because we are afraid we could have bad conscience afterwards?



I am not going to ban religion and neither am I ever going to kill anyone.
I am not even trying to make them think otherwise.

It is said that the christian persecution during the reign of Nero was what made Christianity become so big.
If all those people hadn't died because of their faith the religion wouldn't have been too different from others or even brought out intrest towards it in people.


So you think I will go on crusade now to keep up my influence?
You have quite a violent image of people who have come to the point there is no real reason to believe in something people thousands of years ago thought was the explanation when it fights against our very own understanding of this world.




Friedrich Nietzsche: the son of a parson turned out to say the famous words: "God is Dead"
Western Philosophy was born in ancient Greece when slavery made it possible for free men to have enough free time to think about these things.


You seem to refuse the fact that it isn't about anger or revenge. I am actually quite happy. I can just smile and think that I don't need to believe in anything I don't want to or anything I don't think is true. I believe I am a bit more agnostic than yesterday but that makes no difference.




So without christianity people would seek vengeance?

I believe religion is more of a cultural heritage kind of thing than what amkes us who we are today.
It is the time and place of people long gone. Their thoughts and way of life remaining in our time.
We should create our own time not live the life of past.



That is from the code of hammurabi from babylon (well I anot sure was it Assyrian age or Babylonian) actually.

Oh and just to mention: Humes Quillotine works here too.
Bible, God and Christian morale have no proof of being "right"

+1

I do, but either I get lost or I read it partially because you always write novels.

Like I said somewhere before. No matter which question you ask, when you keep asking "why" on every answer, you'll certainly once come to something unexplainable. That's what always made me wandering, again, "why".

Yeah I just get lost in it.

Yeah I know and thats what makes explaining this kinds of things to children very difficult.
We even had a great Tv show here in Finland where the contestants were trying to answer to the questions of children.

This is but another proof of how little do we actually know about our world.

Actually one modern day philosopher (I don't remember who exactly was it) said that religion should be nothing but a way to explain things about our world to children.
And in a way it is much like santa claus and such. (And I by this I mean no insult I hope none of you will take this too seriously.)

oh and all those +1 things also are something that come along the theories.

I don't know if I really get you point, but I'll try. Let's just say, to do "good" things, you shouldn't do that for yourself. It's about not being egoistic.


Nietzsche had a moustache, unlike me.
But seriously, most of the time things aren't done in the first place because of the disapproval of family, friends, neighbours and such. The bad conscience comes later, after having done something immoral (at least in my case).


As I said, it's a lead up. Nowadays people like you are idealistic, and believe it can be done without violence. But it's impossible without violence. Come to think of it, it's even impossible with using violence. I'm sorry if you understood from me that you're a yet undiscovered mass murderer.


Again, I'm not accusing you of being willing to take many lives. I think this whole new proscecution thing will be a process of many years, but not too many years.


I don't know how it is in Finland, but right here you have to chance to be rediculed. That's not because they like you so much or because they think everybody is entitled to their opinion.


Easier, yes


It's not just a way of life in connection to other people, first of all it's a way of life in relation with God. And this never gets outdated.

I say to you that we are right.. So what?? You are the right of all over the world??